DNB Bank ASA

Welcome, everyone, and good morning. Welcome also to everyone following us on the stream because we are also online with the stream, we need to wait until the right time to start this session.

And now it's 9:30, and we are ready to present the results for the fourth quarter and for the full year 2025. We see a lot of smiles in the audience.

We hope it's because of the dividend. And I will give the floor to our CEO, Kjerstin Braathen, and also to our CFO, Rasmus Figenschou, for the first time on this stage.

We will go through the results, and there will be time for questions after also from the online audience. Please, Kjerstin.

Thank you so much, Even, and a very warm welcome to all of you, even if it's cold outside to this presentation of our fourth quarter results but where also I would like to highlight some of the key points for the year 2025 as a whole. I think it surprises no one if I say that these are historic times in terms of uncertainty.

But we often say also that uncertainty does not mean that there are not opportunities out there for businesses and across industries. In fact, we almost see the contrary.

Uncertain times in a bigger picture does not mean either that we need to forget the little things. And today is an important day for us because of our results but it was also an important day to pick because it's an important day for a few of our colleagues.

And in DNB, we like to talk about the importance of people. So first, I need to say that we have also invited you to celebrate Even's birthday today.

But more importantly, we have invited you to celebrate Stig, our long-term photographer, who turns 60 years today. So that is an illustration to the DNB team.

In this environment where uncertainty is the new normal, the economy continues to perform well and prove its resilience in Norway. We also see that our customers continue to have a high activity, and they perform well across sectors.

We focus on our core with our unwavering commitment to our customers and the development of our relationship and our business with them. We are, we believe, presenting a solid set of numbers today, demonstrating the activity level in the Norwegian economy and also the strategic value of the positions that we continuously build across the business.

I would like to start with a couple of highlights concerning our customers because we like to start with the customer in DNB. First, DNB Carnegie.

In 2025, DNB Carnegie was the institution that took part in the highest number and the largest volume of IPOs across all of Europe. The position and the strength of the position is clearly demonstrated by being #1 in the Nordics in investment banking, #1 across equities and #1 in Norway and Sweden on also mergers and acquisitions.

On the retail banking side, we continue to make life easier for our customers. One of the things they achieved in '25 was to reduce the time it takes for a mortgage application to be implemented by 24%.

We also note that Montrose, which is our challenger platform for retail savings in Sweden was awarded the best bank in Sweden in '25 and this only after having been in operation for a year. And we are motivated to see that the level of customer satisfaction is on its way upwards across many areas of our operation and that we see the highest level of customer satisfaction in Sbanken after the integration.

For the smaller customers, we have made it easier not only to become a customer in the bank but also in terms of registering your new business with an automatic process and through this, reduced the time consumed by these 2 activities by 37%, more time for our customers to focus on the business and creating value. I am very proud of the team that works very hard to deliver all of these results across the group and creates value for our customers every day.

Key highlights financially for the quarter is a return on equity that comes in at 16.6% in the quarter, driven by growth across lending and deposits but also very high activity in other areas. The return on equity is well above the minimum targeted level of 14%.

NII is up by 1.2%, driven naturally by growth in the business as well as other interest income elements, and it's partly offset by mix effects as well as rate cuts that takes effect in this quarter. Net commission and fees is up by more than 40%, 40.3% from fourth quarter last year, naturally reflecting the integration of the Carnegie activities since then.

But I would highlight the fourth quarter with very strong performance across asset management and investment banking. Our portfolio remains very robust.

99.4% of our exposure is in Stage 1 and 2. There are no negative migration.

On the contrary, there are positive development in credit quality in areas such as large corporates but we do book some impairments in the quarter and have a cost of risk of 15 basis points. These are primarily related to specific customer situations.

Earnings per share, up by 9.6% compared to the third quarter this year, for the year, NOK 28.45 per share. And this is thus the basis for our Board's decision to propose a dividend of NOK 18 per share as a cash dividend for the year.

This is up 7.5% from last year, fully in line with our dividend policy. Our capital ratio remains rock solid, I would say, with a capital core equity Tier 1 of 17.9% after the deduction of dividend and after the deduction of an additional share buyback program of 0.5 percentage points that we do announce today, a headroom of 160 basis points towards the expected and required level by the FSA, comfortably to support a growing business as we move ahead, but also to deliver on dividend policy.

The outlook for the Norwegian economy remains robust. Our economists expect a healthy growth this year by 1.5 percentage points GDP, 1.6% next year.

Unemployment remains low, 2.2%, and this is the level where we expect it to remain in the coming years. And unemployment is probably the most important factor for financial stability and economic health across the Norwegian economies and households.

While inflation is still not fully down at the targeted level of 2%, we continue to see that it comes down. There is also an expectation in the market that the annual wage growth this year will lead to a growth in real wage for most people, and this will continue to drive consumption as a key element to support further economic growth.

We have seen, as you may recall, 2 cuts in the key policy rates during 2025. DNB Carnegie expects another cut in key policy rate in June this year and thereafter, a stable level for the key policy rate.

With an additional cut, this would take the policy rate from 4% today to 3.75%, and this is the level it's expected to remain at for the remainder of the forecasting period. While the level of global economic uncertainty remains high, the activity level and the underlying fundamentals for our business and the opportunities that we see for our customers continue to provide a very favorable backdrop for our business as we move ahead.

A few highlights on the business areas and now for the full year of 2025. The growth in lending in '25 comes in at 4.9% across the group.

Deposits are up 2.8% for the year. The growth is slightly above the 3% to 4% that we usually indicate.

We believe this is a strong point. This is profitable growth.

And I think it clearly demonstrates the value of our growth platform where we have talked about having a slightly different position than many, given our growth platform internationally, both in the Nordics but also outside in specific industries. And we see that this growth platform over time enables us to deliver even when the market is in Norway is somewhat slower.

Deposits, on the other hand, 2.8% is slightly below the 3% to 4%. What is important is that the attractive growth in deposit we see comes across Personal Customers and corporate customers in Norway by 7.7% for Personal Customers and 3.9% for our corporate customers.

These are the areas where the deposits are the most sticky and the most valuable. There is a decrease in large corporates.

This is related to a desired reduce on specific volumes on specific names and not very accretive to the NII. So all in all, 2.8% is also a number that we're pleased with.

On the personal customer side, we've seen a high activity, a growth of 2.2% for the year, a year with a lot of activity also generated by the fact that we have seen rate cuts. The net interest income is up for the year despite 2 rate cuts.

And there is quite a substantial uplift in other income by 30.2%, of course, due to the integration of Carnegie but very strong contributions from assets under management and continued increasing quarter-by-quarter of the savings accounts that we offer to our customers. We see during the year '25 that our real estate broker is doing increasingly better and better.

And it's a good reference to note that of the sales that we saw in the previous quarter, we finance 32% of the sales that we have brokered, almost 10% higher than our market share, an element that demonstrates the value of having that type of a business within the group. Cost-wise, nominally, it's up.

If we look at the underlying cost development ex the effects from Carnegie, there is a flat cost development in this area, clearly demonstrating a very strong cost control. For our corporate customers, we also see profitable lending growth, 7.7%.

There are growth in commercial real estate but I would like to highlight also growth among SMEs. We do follow that.

We like to see that also the broader and regional part of the businesses are growing, which they are at a higher pace than the market. And the growth in NII is accompanied by an even stronger growth in revenues related from other areas than the interest-bearing one.

Higher customer satisfaction, in particular, for the smaller customers that are very attractive to many. We're working hard on that.

And during the year, we have seen an uplift in the market share for start-ups, newly established companies by 3 percentage points up to 28.7%, which is a very strong position long term for the business. Large Corporates, total revenue up 12% and NII growth of 4.4% also here despite the rate cuts.

Other income, a strong up 29%, demonstrating the cooperation across with DNB Carnegie, a strong development in asset management and a strong development of the business as a whole. The quality in the portfolio is improved.

The impairments across both Corporate Customer Norway and Large Corporates are this quarter related to customer-specific situations but the portfolios and the credit quality remains very robust. A couple of comments on DNB Carnegie and our business in wealth management.

You can see the uptick in revenues that we deliver in 2025. We believe this clearly demonstrates the value in the improved strategic position that we have across these 2 businesses, together with DNB Carnegie.

The customer income in DNB Carnegie in '25 is up by 27%. More so, I would say we're very motivated by the strong reception from customers, having experience that we are working on and being awarded many transactions that we have not been -- we not would have been able to compete on if we had not joined forces.

We have received strong recognition of our positions or not even strong recognition, but I would say a strong track record in terms of the magnitude of the business that has been done. And we increasingly see how the organization works well together and markets are active across ECM, across DCM and even across M&A as we enter into 2026.

Wealth management, total income is up by a whole 41.7% from the prior year, NOK 527 billion growth in assets under management. More importantly, there is also a meaningful contribution from flow in this number, NOK 47 billion for the year as a whole, and 40% of this is related to retail volumes.

This is a solid development. It solidifies our position as Norway's largest asset manager but it also demonstrates the value of having built a broader position.

We see that we are also continuing to strengthen our share as -- our market share in distribution of funds to the retail segment and see that now NOK 4 out of NOK 10 that are saved in mutual funds in Norway are actually saved in a DNB fund. We're still not even a year into having merged the Carnegie business into these 2 areas, and we continue to look forward to putting our efforts into further strengthening these positions, a broader offering to add even more value to our customers as we move ahead.

Lastly from me, I talked about the dividend and our Board's intention to propose a dividend of NOK 18 per share, which is a nominal increase per share per year, in line with our dividend policy. We have completed 2% buyback.

So with an additional 0.5 percentage point of buyback, that brings us to 2.5% and a total payout for the year 2025 of 86.3%. We expect to continue to have a share buyback program with the Board asking the general assembly for a proxy also this time around.

We have a strong capital position and ability to support our customers in their future growth and deliver dividend, and we continue to remain very firmly committed to our dividend policy that we have been for many years. And with that, I have the pleasure to welcome on stage our rock-solid brand-new CFO, Rasmus Figenschou.

Thank you, Kjerstin. I will now take us through the financial results for the fourth quarter in more detail.

We noted strong activity across the group with a currency-adjusted volume growth of 2.2%. In the personal customer side, the growth was 0.3% for the quarter.

And on corporate customer Norway had a strong lending growth of 5.2%. This was driven primarily related to several specific transactions within the commercial real estate side and is expected to be syndicated and taken out in the bond market during the first quarter of this year.

Growth in Large Corporates and International came in at 2.7%, driven by increased activity across both geographies and industries in mainly low-risk customers. Currency-adjusted deposits are up by 0.2%.

Firstly, corporate customers in Norway increased by 4.3%, driven by increased volumes across industries as well as public sector related to increased allocation through the government budget. Both within Personal Customers and LCIC, there is driven by seasonal effects and the underlying development in the portfolio remains stable.

We continue to maintain a strong deposit-to-loan ratio within the customer segments of 72.2% in the quarter. The net interest margin was up by 1 basis point in the quarter, ending at 181 basis points, supported by volume growth and an increase in other NII.

Combined spreads in the customer segment was down by 6 basis points, driven by repricing effect, product portfolio mix effects and margin pressure from stronger but rational competition. NII is up 1.2% for the quarter.

The effect from the lower combined spreads showed on the previous slide is noted here with a reduction of NOK 504 million. Keep in mind that in the fourth quarter, we had full effect of the August repricing and partial effect of the November repricing, which will have full effect in this coming quarter.

Interest on equity is up NOK 40 million, driven by average increased volumes of equity. Amortization effects and fees are up NOK 47 million, reflecting higher activity during the quarter.

Other NII is up NOK 476 million, of which NOK 171 million is related to nonrecurring year-end adjustments. Please note that from year-end, regulatory change related to tax accounts in Norway, which means that corporates will no longer be required to maintain a separate liquidity buffer in their banks for tax payments.

The estimate is to have a negative annual effect on the NII of approximately NOK 300 million. Moving on to commission and fees.

We have a robust and well-diversified fee platform and the performance this quarter clearly signals the potential for continued future growth. Customer activity picked up during the quarter and net commission and fees are up NOK 1.3 billion or 40.3% from an already all-time high in the fourth quarter of 2024.

Real estate broking was up 6%, where reflecting higher activity in the real estate market and the number of properties sold came in at 4.7%. Investment banking services was up by 101%, a strong performance compared to an already strong quarter in the previous year.

We note particularly strong performance within ECM, DCM and bank syndication, driven by high activity and several landmark deals in the quarter. Asset management and custodial services was up by 68%.

Assets under management was up NOK 88 billion, well balanced between the commercial -- the retail segment and the institutional investors, retail being an attractive segment for us. We noted a positive net flow of NOK 20 billion, also evenly split between the retail and the institutionals.

And finally, we noted a positive development in the number of savings schemes. Money transfer and banking services were down by 25%.

The result in this quarter is mainly driven by increased use of credit insurance and LCIC. This is a tool to ensure capital efficiency, driving origination and distribution strategy and ensuring increased profitability for the group as a whole.

In addition, we saw pressure on profits from the used car sales in DNB Finance this quarter. Sale of insurance product was up by 15%, supported by continued strong income from defined contribution in our life insurance business and positive development in the non-life insurance business as well.

In addition to what can be seen on this slide, we also noted positive momentum in other income with strong results from our life insurance business, DNB Liv and our non-life insurance company provider, Fremtind. The strong performance and high level of activity is also reflected in our costs, where operating expenses are up NOK 878 million.

The high activity during the quarter resulted in an increase of NOK 330 million in variable salaries. The fixed salary uptick is related to Q3 lower costs due to Swedish holiday pay.

Further reflecting seasonally high activity, we noted increasing costs in the next 3 categories on the slide. We also note a one-off effect on NOK 200 million, driven by an integration cost of NOK 50 million as well as year-end effects related to variable salaries and other operational expenses.

To paint the full picture, I also want to highlight the full year cost perspective as well, where inflation outgrew the underlying cost growth. Norwegian core inflation came in at 3.1%, where underlying growth in DNB was 2.6% for the year.

The tax rate for 2025 came in at 18.5%. And going forward, as previously indicated also, our tax guiding is adjusted from 20% to 23%.

We note integration costs of NOK 250 million in 2025 also communicated to the market in relation to the Carnegie transaction during the year. For 2026, we estimate up to NOK 200 million of integration costs for the same.

At year-end, we have 226 more FTEs than we had at the same time of last year, while at the same time, welcoming 840 new FTEs with the Carnegie merger. This illustrates a considerable gross reduction in FTEs in line with the cost reduction measures communicated at our Capital Markets Day in 2024.

Now over to our portfolio, which remains robust and well diversified with 99.4% of the portfolio being in Stage 1 and 2. The Personal Customers portfolio, which accounts for roughly half of our exposure, remains strong.

Continuing the trend over the last few quarters, we note record low request for installment holidays and continued reduction in interest-only loans. For the Corporate Customers, impairments came in at NOK 793 million.

The portfolio remains robust and well diversified. There is no structural changes to the portfolio or migration in general to note, negative migration.

The impairments in Stage 3 is related to specific names and specific situations in both LCIC and Corporate Banking Norway. These are typical exposures that we have been following closely and most are in industries that have been challenging for some time, such as residential, real estate, construction.

Relating to the legacy portfolio in Poland, we incur a NOK 34 million provision. We remain comfortable in the credit quality in the portfolio but please bear in mind that losses will vary from quarter-to-quarter.

I brought that from Ida and continuing on. Now moving on to capital.

Our CET1 ratio remained strong at 17.9% with 160 basis point headroom to the regulatory expectations. Pillar 2 guidelines was reduced by 25 basis points during the year from the SREP.

The CET1 ratio was positively impacted by profit generation and the repayment of excess capital from DNB Liv. It was offset by the proposed cash dividend of NOK 18 per share, and the annual operational risk adjustment, which is driven by the average income over the last 3 years.

We recently finalized the previous 1% share buyback program and today announced a new 0.5% buyback program, reducing the CET1 by 19 basis points. We expect that the Board of Directors will request an authorization from the AGM for a share buyback program as they have done so in previous years.

The leverage ratio remains strong at 6.6%, well above the regulatory requirements of 3%. Combined with a CET of 17.9%, our capital position remains strong and enables us to continue to deliver on our dividend policy.

Summing up, we delivered a strong quarter in the with key figures of 16.6% return on equity, 39.7% of cost income and earnings per share of NOK 7.65, an increase of nearly 10% from the previous quarter. And with that, I thank you for your attention and open up for questions.

So much, Kjerstin and Rasmus. We have some microphones in the audience.

Please wait for the microphones before you ask your questions. Anyone wants to be the first one out, Thomas Svendsen, SEB, in this side.

So question to the capitalization. Why are you not using the opportunity today to sort of adjust the CET1 ratio lower down towards the requirements?

And is that a signal of your growth opportunities during '26 or maybe some smaller M&As?

We have a capitalization level that remains fairly consistent to what it has been in previous quarter, and it's an ample room to have 160 basis points above the expected and required level. We are proposing a dividend with a substantial uptick.

That's in line with our dividend policy. And we are mindful of having the capacity to grow for further growth and also have an intention to continue to do some share buybacks.

You will, when you look at the growth in the previous quarter, see that in this quarter, in particular, the growth was very capital efficient. So probably more efficient than it is likely to be over time.

There is no signaling or no change in the way we think about our capitalization. Priority #1 is to support our customers and to grow.

And beyond that, we aim to pay out excess capital over time to shareholders, and this gives us an ability to amply deliver on that.

Okay. And just a final question on the growth on the Personal Banking side, it was quite slow in the quarter.

Do you have some reflections on that?

In our mind, the growth is not so slow in the fourth quarter. It's usually not one of the strongest quarters in the year.

The fourth quarter this year also saw a lower activity in general compared to other quarters because the rate cuts that happened in the second and third quarter generated a lot of activity where customers reoriented themselves where they looked at swapping banks, and we could see a very positive impact on this on our Sbanken brand, which is typically a strong offering in such a situation, whereas fourth quarter is a calmer market where what we primarily see is refinancings and people buying new homes. We have a decent growth.

We have a sound development of margins given the market where competition is strong. So all in all, we're pleased with the performance of the teams throughout the year with 2.2% but also fourth quarter and how the business develops.

Yes, Simon in ABG.

Simon Brun, ABG Sundal Collier. Following up on Thomas' questions but turning to the Corporate side.

As you mentioned, strong lending growth in Corporates in the quarter but also for the year, around 8%, well above the market growth. When you -- when you take market share on the corporate side, do you do that without any compromising on the margin?

Are you -- are you comfortable with sort of the profitability on that growth? Yes, that's the first question.

Yes. Good question.

We are very comfortable with the profitability and the sustainability of the growth. If I start with large corporates, it's primarily a growth in low-risk category of clients, which is also one of the reasons why it's very capital efficient.

Bear in mind that half of this growth comes from our international platform. So it's very hard to measure the credit growth and certainly in the specific quarter towards market share.

And if you look at our growth platforms outside of Norway, they are industry-specific. And if you look at the Nordics, we have more of a challenger position.

So we have a much broader room to grow, and we do this together with our team members from DNB Carnegie, where we have offerings where we package together a broader spread of products. Growth will vary from quarter-to-quarter.

But of course, we are very pleased to see that for the year 2025 for Large Corporates, our growth platform enables us to deliver 7% growth. Now moving to Corporate customers in Norway, there are 2 elements to consider.

One is commercial real estate, which is a substantial part of that portfolio. And the other is SMEs.

SMEs is where we look at market shares. And SMEs, our growth for the year was 2.8%, I believe, whereas market growth of 1.8%.

So that confirms the picture that we have communicated for some years that we are able to take some market share on the SME side due to our offering having competitive advantages amongst others in areas such as the broadness of product [indiscernible]. This is a very profitable business, a complex business to deliver on, which is also why we're happy to see customer satisfaction increase and an increased market share for start-ups.

Competition is strong. we don't win every deal.

We are focused on the profitability in the growth. And when we see we're able to deliver on that, we are happy to see that.

The area that is still lagging because the growth is lower than what you have been seeing for many years up until a couple of years ago is the construction activity for homes. That has still not picked up.

We ask our team every day. And from what I hear now, they are seeing more inquiries for new projects, but it's a little bit early to say how well they will sell, and it's going to take a while before those volumes come back on the book but they will at some stage.

Now in '24, there is also some substantial transactions on the property side, commercial real estate. And this impacts the number, the overall gross number and is also why you cannot read the total number as a market share indicator.

Typically, we do the transactions that are more complex that requires delivery of more than just the debt. And fourth quarter growth in Corporate Customers Norway, there are such deals in the numbers.

And there are also some of these transactions that already have been syndicated, distributed to the market, which means that, yes, there is a tailwind going into the first quarter but maybe not as strong as it looks at the outset end of year numbers.

Thank you for a very comprehensive answer. Maybe one for Rasmus then on the NII bridge you showed.

Obviously, a negative impact on the spreads, which I guess relates to the rate cuts and fierce competition, as you say. But on the other NII, very helpful in this quarter, I guess, and some nonrecurring items.

But in general, how should we think of the other NII? Is that untypically beneficial this time around?

Or how sustainable is that sort of tailwind from other NII?

The other NII will vary from quarter-to-quarter, as you see, and it's related to non-direct deposit and lending interest income. That could be, for example, on the prime financing, which externally we call...

Securities financing.

Securities financing. Thank you.

And within treasury, et cetera. So this quarter, there were some of numerous factors that point to positive.

Others, there will be more balanced and sometimes more on the negative side. So I think in some, there is -- we see in this quarter some of several positives playing in on the other NII.

Yes. Herman Zahl in Pareto.

I have 2 questions on costs. So first, you say underlying costs are up by 2.6% year-over-year.

So I know you have a cost income target but could you help us with what we should expect on the underlying cost into next year and highlight some cost lines where you think there will be some cost pressure and where you will be able to be more cost efficient medium term?

Cost pressure is related to underlying inflation is obviously driving the costs and FTEs directly hitting that, some of those 2. IT costs are also hit in terms of cost pressure.

So the -- looking at -- that's directly sort of the posts that are driving it. For us, I think looking at the year as a whole is much more conducive to looking forward rather than the quarter as a whole.

The quarter as a whole -- the quarter, sorry, this last quarter was driven by high activity, as mentioned, also one-offs of NOK 200 million, as mentioned, NOK 50 million being to -- relating to the integration costs and also some year-end adjustments on variable costs, et cetera. So I think looking at the year as a whole is a more correct way of looking at the cost going forward.

So the clear guidance we have, as you're saying, it's sub 40. We don't nominally guide on cost, but I think comments were given on the quarterly development where there are several sort of activity-related elements as well as one-offs.

But I think to add to just what Rasmus is saying, the annual development demonstrates that we are underway also in terms of delivering on the cost initiatives that we described at CMD with a reduction of more than 600 employees. So it very much highlights the fact that we are growing and we have specific areas of the business that we're growing, but we're also, at the same time, very much focusing on competitiveness and efficiency.

But then on the parts of the SEK 200 million nonrecurring, just to understand it correctly, some of it is related to sort of accrual of bonus payments and should be seen in the context of the strong fee performance?

Not in the quarter as such but as an adjustment for the year, which is why we're also showing the full year because it's not representative for the quarter as such.

Yes. And then just on the associated companies accounted for by equity method, Fremtind, obviously very strong.

And -- but it also seems like maybe other contributions are improving. Could you update on the profitability in Vipps and Luminor or the other contributions there?

I think definitely, Fremtind is delivering very well, and we're pleased to see that new strategy, new management, better pricing. I mean, of course, they've been through the same cycle as many other non-life insurance businesses but we certainly also see strategic effects from repositioning the company, which is working well.

They are the largest contributor to associated companies, representing roughly half -- more than half of the contribution. We are not obviously specifically guiding on the other companies but we're seeing a healthy development.

Vipps had a positive contribution for the third quarter in a row. So all of these businesses are doing well.

Nothing in particular to highlight or that stands out, and we expect a meaningful contribution for them also as we move ahead.

Thank you. Roy Tilley from Arctic next up.

Just 2 questions from me. Just one quick one on tax.

You had a 14% effective tax rate in the quarter, which I guess is that usual tax deductibility of interest expenses. In the national budget, they tried to change that regulation.

So just wanted to check if your long-term tax guidance, is that still around 23% or 20%.

That's correct. We affirm the long-term tax guidance of 23%.

So this will be the last year with this effect most likely.

Correct.

All right. And then just on -- just one follow-up on growth and margins.

So looking at your lending margins in the personal customer segment, it's down 18 basis points in the quarter, which I guess could be some timing effects, but also the competitive pressure we talked about. So just how do you see those margins into 2026?

And if we look at the full year '26, will you -- is your guess that your -- most of your growth will come on the Corporate side? Or are you kind of targeting still high growth -- higher growth in Personal Customers given the backdrop?

Thank you, Roy. We are targeting growth and profitable growth across all sectors, and I think we've proven our ability to do so throughout this year.

Now looking at margins and in particular, when rates are moving, it's important to look at the volume weighted to have a representative move. And I think that is -- that's not what is 18.

That is a lower number for Personal Customers. But clearly, as highlighted with the 6 basis points decrease on the margins volume-weighted wise for the group, there is a meaningful impact from rate cuts where they are impacting with a little more than one rate cut for the quarter as such, and there is the rest of the second rate cut that takes effect in the first quarter this year.

There is also a mix effect due to higher growth on the lending side than on the deposit side. And there is a competition impact in the margins.

There is also the fact that the growth in large corporates happens on low risk, which normally you would expect lower margins. So there's a mix of effects.

I think we could add that we have competitive prices. And our observation on the personal customer activity is that the margin pressure in fourth quarter was less than it was in the third quarter.

But we do work very actively and very proactively in terms of leveraging the performance competence and platform, if you will, in order to deliver the growth that we do with the platform we have across all of Norway.

Thank you, Roy. Since it's my birthday, I will allow a second question from Thomas.

Go ahead.

Final question, just on the number of employees was slightly down Q-over-Q. So is it fair to assume stability over the next 12 months?

Nice question. We do not guide on FTEs.

We guide on costs.

Nice try. Rune, any questions from those working remotely?

No, not today. Okay.

So thank you all for joining both remotely and physically. And for those of you who are from the press, there will be a press session in the area outside afterwards where members of the management will be available.

And with that, this concludes our session. Thank you so much for listening and being here.

Thank you.