Good afternoon, and hello, everyone. Welcome to Bahana Sekuritas Corporate Access Group Call.

Thank you for spending your valuable time to join us today. My name is Nicolas.

I am the research analyst covering telco, tower and tech at Bahana Sekuritas. Today, I will be serving as your moderator.

Please join me in welcoming today's speaker, Bapa Hartono Tanuwidjaja, Director of PT Sarana Menara Nusantara and Chief of Staff, accompanied by Bapa Adam Gifari, Adviser of PT Sarana Menara Nusantara and Group Investor Relations, who will present the company's full year 2025 financial results, operational performance and outlook for 2026. Without further ado, [ Hartono ], the floor is yours.

Please Hartono.

Thank you, Nico. Hi, everyone.

Hartono is sitting next to me due to the technical glitch. So we'll be sharing the screen together.

It's good that we're next to each other. So Hartono is our Director and Chief of Staff, covering Group Investor Relations.

I'm adviser to this role. So let's start with what we have released for full year 2025 audited results that we announced March 2026, right before Lebaran break.

So I'm going to share my screen. Let's go through the press release that we prepared, and we're going to go through the presentation for the full year.

And after that, we will wait for more, if Hartono has more remarks on the results, and then we can go to Q&A. So as you can see here, we reached full year operating revenue of IDR 13.3 trillion, representing a IDR 4.6 trillion increase for 2025 compared to full year 2024.

EBITDA reached IDR 10.97 trillion, growing by 2.5%, while net profit after minority interest stood at IDR 3.678 trillion, an increase of 10.3% year-on-year. So we think the result is because we look at what we see, what we have despite challenging industry and macroeconomic condition.

We have refocused on our core strength while improving areas where we can see improvement for better results. We leverage our operational scale.

We basically try to get more business by using our scale on towers and fiber and then maintaining strict cost management and drive ongoing efficiencies. As you know, we have a lot of different types of businesses, and we try to combine where we see -- we can see synergies between assets that we have.

That has been the topic of management doing every week where we can see efficiencies and try to leverage higher utilization on our assets. So we are now -- given we have 170,000 kilometers of fiber, we have 35,000 towers.

We see that we have one of the largest independent digital telecommunication infrastructure provider. And then we have the most comprehensive range of services.

So it allows us to provide solutions for our clients to operate different conditions, including consolidation or mergers that we have seen recently during 2025. So the merger of XL Axiata and Smartfren, which opens up significant opportunities.

They need us because more than 50% of the network is on our towers, and they use a lot of our fibers as well. And then we believe with 5G, further service enhancement will be -- will require our involvement with our services and assets, tower and fiber included.

So now we see what we expect for the next 12 months that, firstly, we see consolidation can strengthen pricing discipline. I know that for the past quarters, we've been talking about pricing discipline.

We think we -- in the infrastructure space, we are among the leaders of pricing discipline. That yield remain relatively low, but what we provide to the industry is actually something very efficient compared to where people would go out of pocket, spend their own capital to build towers and fiber.

We believe we provide the value for money when it comes to their network enhancement or network expansion. So we think with competition becoming more healthier, and I think I invite everybody on this call to together monitor this, whether 4G and 5G monetization is improving going forward here.

We see several signs of improvement. But hopefully, for Indonesians, give that the unique position as the fourth largest country in the world, so we think we should be monetizing this position better for everyone, for the telcos, for the fiber users, for the Internet service providers and then provide better revenue mix, better revenue growth and then better OpEx allowance that would work well for our ability to provide services and infrastructure.

Second, the continued acceleration of economic digitalization. We are hearing, because of the war, the government is requiring 1 day of a week that ASN, the state apparatus to work from home or from anywhere, right?

So that would drive further digitalization, similar to what we saw in COVID, right?

Yes, during COVID time.

COVID time. So I think there is an increase of independencies -- sorry, dependencies of people using Internet wherever they are, mobile or wired Internet.

So data traffic is shown to be growing robustly over the years, like double-digit CAGR, and we expect this momentum to continue. And then the potential rollout of 5G will further support this trend.

I think just as a matter of personal observation, before Lebaran, I experienced very bad 5G. But now after coming down, spending holiday for 2 weeks, I noticed that 5G in Jakarta is getting better.

So I think that shows that better penetration of infrastructure in places like Jakarta even would still require more investment, and we will be there for people who ever need infrastructure in many forms. Number three, Indonesia is still in the early stages of AI and cloud technology, which will drive up -- will further increase data traffic and the demand for enhanced connectivity.

So we expect further traffic growth. And then there will be requirement for data centers, fiber optic and power generations.

We have iForte Energi. We have also several other functions under iForte that Hartono can surely add some more on later on during this call.

And then number four, operators continue to adopt asset-light financial strategies for towers, fiber optic networks and provision of clean and renewable energy. I think we see this trend to continue.

I think the requirement -- for instance, they require more dividends out of telcos, right? That means CapEx for sales should remain low and whatever existing infrastructure should be used more optimizely going forward.

So that's what we see during 2025 and should hopefully continue until 2026 and for the future years. So I'm going to move Hartono, if you want to add something?

Yes. I think Adam, it's already well summarized by you.

Maybe you can see and the highlights, the financial unless there is any discussion.

Yes. So I'm going to go through the presentation for the fourth quarter full year audited, so people can see and then we can discuss together.

And then -- so we have 36,000 towers as of last December. For those of you who have not seen or have not gone through this presentation, we have more than 170,000 fiber optic network as of December.

We still remain -- maintain a large percentage of our business model under a build-to-suit model for towers and fiber with long-term predictable cash flows. We maintain investment-grade ratings with S&P, even though there was a change in the sovereign rating for Indonesia.

But Indonesia -- for us, we are still like with S&P BBB-. And with Fitch, we have a stable outlook and no change in the sovereign ceiling so far with Fitch.

And then for return on investment, 8.3%; return on equity, 16%. Stock is included in many of these indices still.

ESG footprint with IDX. And then we have MSCI ESG rating maintained at single A.

Sustainalytics score us 24.2. S&P 40.

So that's what we have achieved so far when it comes to ESG profile during 2026 -- 2025 and others. And then I think for number one, capital management, I think we discuss this every week as a management team.

Access to low cost of funding is discussed all the time. We want to be sure that we have the best cost of capital in the country.

But -- and the banking sector is pretty much liquid. So liquidity amount was $1.3 billion equivalent in rupiah mostly, given banks are also having trouble to find other businesses that is as stable as ours.

And then low-risk business with digital infrastructure business, high demand, difficult to replace as we have exhibited with XL and Smartfren merger. So -- and then proven a possibility of long-term irrevocable contracts.

ESG-conscious company, even smaller for our carbon footprint, I can say. We just discussed with many of our clients, and we have able -- we have been able to basically make the clients pay for their own electricity.

So that should improve further our ESG profile in our tower business. And then now number four, box number four, the telecom space has come down to 3 players basically during 2025, as we all know, with the most recent merger, XL and Smartfren.

And then opportunities for acquisitions still exist. We can discuss more later about this.

And then valuation today is -- we have an annual free cash flow that funds CapEx, dividend and share buybacks, and we have been successfully consolidating assets that we see as accretive to the business. EBITDA and AFFO CAGR, 11.4% and 8.5%.

ROE 2025 of 16% using the most recent numbers. What we tend to do is continue to invest our strong free cash flows using low cost of capital whenever we need to borrow.

And then Indonesia is still at the start of 5G, if I may say, because we haven't heard anything when it comes to what is the time line for 5G spectrum auction. So we still think largely Indonesia is a 4G country.

Penetration for towers is also still pretty much low. So I think for Indonesia, for the continuation of the trajectory is a matter of time because the consolidation has happened.

We've been in the business for almost 20 years. And then for the longest time, we can remember, we were operating with more than 10 at the start of the business.

And now we have 3 telco players, all intended are very eager to basically monetize whatever they have spent in 4G and 5G so far. So -- and then prepare for new opportunities.

I think Hartono, you can add more later on. Obviously, for C, number one, expanding product offering.

We -- I think for the past quarters, we mentioned about managed services, Power as a Service, and we now come -- we have come into green energy profession for our clients. And then strategy is driven by evolving customer needs, obviously.

With high energy prices like now, it should be interesting for people to look into green energy, right Hartono, because solar panel, for instance, it's a matter of where we can find suitable property for us to invest in solar panels and then provide them -- provide our clients and other types of customers, not only telcos with green energy going forward. Fixed mobile convergence is also there.

We can talk about what we see for 2026. And 5G obviously represents another set of opportunities.

So I'm going to skip this Slide #5. So now Slide #6, we have 36,247 towers.

I think I can say this number reflects majority, if almost all of Indosat and Hutchison relocation have been fulfilled. We have some carryover into 2026.

So we expect a number of towers to increase for 2026 because of completion of Indosat Hutchison relocation towers, probably in the hundreds, no longer in the thousands when we spoke firstly about this. We still have about 1,400 to be completed during 2025.

We should be about 400 by now that we need -- that we should conclude to basically finalize the towers that we built for IOH relocations. So the location of the towers mostly in Java, Bali, NTT and NTB.

Sumatera approximately above 8,200. Kalimantan 3,000.

Maluku and Papua still with the lowest number of towers given density. So obviously, we see this increase approaching that of Kalimantan is quite interesting because of the economic activity in that area, especially mining and plantations.

And then our towers on our fiber, where we have our fiber, you see the difference between revenue-generating FTTT is basically where we charge our customers and then FTTT kilometer pole is the kilometer of physical cable that we own under FTTT category. So as you can see, Java utilization is high.

Sumatera is high. Bali Nusra is also high.

And then Kalimantan is lower. Sulawesi is a bit lower.

It's a function of density basically where we see our customers need fiber to the tower as a means of data transport because of data traffic is increasing in those areas. And then our build-buy-return strategy.

We invest in build-to-suit towers. So in the form of various contracts, mostly for 2025 is relocations and then expand fiber optic network, FTTH and then more slower growth in FTTT.

FTTH, we expect to grow quite interesting. But when we say we have fiber, we can also use it for other types of business such as connectivity.

And then during 12 months, we added 847 towers. So that's short of a couple of hundred towers that we need to conclude for Indosat, Hutchison.

And then 6,789 kilometers of revenue-generating fiber. We added 9,000 activations.

We added 89,000 home connects and then 31,000 home passes. So very good execution on the home connect side.

Return that we mostly basically focus on protecting investment-grade ratings and then we maintain investment grade ratings. We distributed dividend IDR 1.2 trillion during 2025, based on past quarter's results.

So diverse product portfolio. So we have 36,000 towers and 60,500 tenants as of December.

Tenancy ratio 1.67. 53% of towers located in Java.

Just in third quarter, I think this number is 52%, but we added towers more in Java. So that's also an interesting trend, ending the quarter with 53% of towers located in Java.

And then MNOs have a growing need for additional scope. And then fiber to the tower, we -- basically, it's a function of our service to mobile network operators.

So we have 224,000 kilometers of revenue generating by end of December. Network focus is to support surging data traffic.

So if the traffic continues to increase, we are hopeful towers and fiber to the tower to be more correlated to that situation. And then we continue to basically provide the FTTT leases under long-term contracts, non-cancelable contracts and opportunity for high utilizations with other fiber solutions for our customers, namely connectivity business.

To the right, we saw very nice growth in our connectivity business. Now it's over 25,000 activations.

I think this number used to be below 20,000 by December 2024. So a very good growth in the connectivity side.

FTTH also saw penetration reaching 14%. I think this number last quarter -- third quarter, I mean, was about 12%.

And now going into where we spend our money. In 2025, as you can see, the amount of towers for non-towers -- CapEx for non-towers is approaching that of towers.

And then for towers tenancy ratio is 1.67, slightly higher than 2024, because we basically restructured some reseller contracts to become direct lease to our towers. So we see -- in the past, we did not count reseller as part of tenancy ratios, but with reseller being direct leased into our towers as part of the XL, Smartfren merger, so tenancy ratio can go up.

And then for fiber to the tower, I think we see impact of mergers. So a bit decline to 1.79 from previously -- on previous year, 1.84, but still at a very high utilization ratio approaching 1.8.

And now our track record of consistent growth, we see towers is inching a bit in terms of tenants. As you can see, the darker blue chart there.

And then with towers start to grow again after years of stagnant performance because of the years of Indosat merger. And then as you can see here, we were very busy with -- everybody is busy actually, towers and tenancies, how to manage 36,000 towers, locations, making sure we are basically getting what is our right under the contracts for towers and fiber has been the theme of 2025.

That's why you saw 2025, a growth of 4% revenue. Basically, we look back at what we have in past contracts, and then we basically did a very thorough, very diligent review of what we have under our existing contracts with all of our customers.

And then there -- from there, we take it that we can charge some money, we can get away from certain penalties, even though the theme of 2024 -- 2025 was mostly serving for IOH relocations for towers here, but we have been able to book higher revenue because of those very strict practices by management. And then for fiber to the tower, revenue-generating revenue increased by a little bit, about 3% there.

So 7,000 kilometers compared to 2024. And the number of activations under connectivity actually grow very fast, very quickly.

That's almost 9,000 activations during the course of 1 year because we have been very aggressively utilizing our existing fiber. We opened up new places where we can reach closer to our customers with new offices at [indiscernible].

And then use our existing fiber as much as we can, work together with our subsidiaries. We have many new names like [indiscernible] during the past year.

We have [ Remala ], basically helping us utilize our fiber and work together to identify new location as opposed to working separately in the same market. Strong financial performance.

You see the towers have been quite stable. Actually, we inched up a bit to IDR 8.7 trillion.

And then for the yellow bar, which is the non-tower, we actually increased almost 10% there. CAGR, 7% from tower.

The non-tower is almost 40%. If you look at the EBITDA growth CAGR, 11.5%; AFFO, 10.6%.

So actually, given still high interest rate environment, if I may say, during 2025, even though we were among the lowest cost provider when it comes to borrowing cost, we're still seeing AFFO growing slower than EBITDA because of high interest rates environment in 2025. There were hopes -- there were hope actually in the market.

I think as we all know, everyone that there was a hope that for rate cut during the year, but it was not sufficient to make it the AFFO growth as much as we grew EBITDA during 2025. And then leverage, 3.74, on this page, talking about our balance sheet.

During the year, we paid down about IDR 7 trillion. The money from rights issue came in IDR 5.5 trillion.

So we paid more than what we received in rights issue money, IDR 5.5 trillion. So we paid down IDR 1.5 trillion more than from our own operations.

So leverage came down to 3.74. Interest coverage ratio, 3.9%.

And borrowing cost at the end of 2026 -- 2025 was 6.0%. If you remember, this number used to be 6.5% at the start of 2025.

So we cut down to 6.0%. I think we see a very close resemblance of what we saw in policy rate cut in Indonesia by Bank Indonesia.

So we use -- we utilize different types of borrowing structures going into the bond market, going into the money market with the banks, going into different types of structure, even though I don't remember seeing going into foreign exchange transactions during 2025 because rupiah was so interesting to borrow in rather than going into ForEx market and then hedge it back to rupiah. So we used mostly rupiah during 2025 basically.

And then corporate ratings remain BBB- with S&P; Fitch, AAA; and then Fitch Global, BBB flat. This is summarized profit and loss.

So I think when it comes to performance of the company, revenues, gross income, EBITDA, I think we have been exhibiting a very good performance given where our competition is when it comes to these kind of metrics. Net income margin, 27%.

I've been getting questions about tax expense. I can say it's rather difficult to project when it comes to tax expense given different policies during different times of, say, Finance Minister's financing strategy.

So we see very difficult to forecast tax expense. But we do -- whenever we see -- we paid more in certain years like in 2024, wherever we no longer pay in 2025.

So that should better reflect what we think is the taxation for the year, for instance. And then the financial position, I think these are -- we have discussed in previous slides when it comes to our balance sheet.

And then this is our cash flows, beginning balance, IDR 940 million. We have basically adopted more stringent cash management policies starting 2023, basically.

Whenever we have excess cash, we used to pay down debt or maybe make some down payments for future CapEx, where we see more efficient to do it that way. That's why you see cash management is very stringent.

Collection comes to almost IDR 15 trillion and then CapEx plus OpEx is almost IDR 9 trillion. Interest expense is IDR 2.788 trillion, which is a marked below the run rate before, which is IDR 2.9 trillion.

And then cash surplus from operations, IDR 4.1 billion. Business acquisition is smallish, IDR 579 billion.

And then rights issue money, IDR 5.5 trillion that I mentioned. And then loan proceeds, we paid down basically IDR 7.2 trillion.

So we paid more than we received in rights issue money. And then we paid dividend IDR 1.2 billion.

So ending the cash with IDR 650 billion by end of December 2025. And then going to quarter-by-quarter analysis, 10% year-on-year as well as quarter-over-quarter.

Basically, connectivity is the brighter spot that we have discussed with people before. The non-tower segment under connectivity is the brighter spot for the company.

We see consolidation playing a big impact on our towers operations. But I think we -- what we have also experienced that if we look hard and then work diligent enough that we are able to basically collect better what we should be able to collect from tower businesses.

And EBITDA, 6.7% year-on-year and an 8.5% growth quarter-over-quarter. And then net income attributable to parent, 24% Q-on-Q increase and then 26% year-on-year.

Revenue analysis, 2.4% just by segment; and then fiber to the tower, 10%; connectivity, 4%; and then FTTH, 21%. And then total, we increased the business with 4.6%.

Summary operational data, we have increased the number of towers, 847 and then tenants increased by 2,500 because of the reseller becoming direct tenancy to our towers. Fiber to the Tower, 6.7% -- 6,700 increased kilometers, 3.1%.

Connectivity increased volume by 53% year-on-year. And then FTTH increased 53% because of past contracts that we delivered during 2025.

Going into Slide 23, this is very much relevant. What we have been able to finance -- the sources that we financed of the company is using mostly rupiah during 2025 and then exploration profile is looking like this.

So we have very much -- we are preparing for a new bond offering to replace our 2024 [indiscernible] facility. It's in the works right now.

And then we have maturing USD loan in 2027. But the maturity -- the maturing debt in USD have all been hedged with FX 15,000, respectively.

While we are on this slide, I received a question whether we would get a ForEx gain or ForEx loss if rupiah continues to depreciate. Like, for instance, today, it's past IDR 17,000 to the dollar.

I think our response to that is that we do not have hedge accounting, which means there is not direct correlations between certain depreciation in rupiah with our P&L or appreciation in rupiah into our P&L. So only by the time we basically pay down the debt and we enjoy a positive mark-to-market by the time we pay, then we see a positive result in that moment, in that quarter, for instance, when we pay down the debt.

So assuming, for instance, in 2027, rupiah maintained at IDR 17,000 or IDR 18,000 for this matter. So we should be able to achieve a positive mark-to-market when we pay down the debt in the USD on this chart, the red one, $130 million notional amount.

So hopefully, the analysts or the investor who asked me the question is on this call, so he or she can basically get this response directly from us. Okay, Nico, I think that's all we have.

Hartono?

So yes, 2025, despite of the challenge, the merger on the Indosat, with Hutch and also XL, Smartfren. So we still able to print a good result from the revenue, EBITDA, net income, this we achieved through the several initiatives within our group, mainly synergy.

And then we -- like Adam said, that we're carefully looking at every line of the expenses, which one that we can optimize or synergize. So I think that's the additional comment from me.

Yes. So it's a very meticulous exercise.

There is not one particular area of the company that we can say as when it comes to this exercise that Hartono was saying that, okay, towers or non-towers, I think we really relook at everything that we have in the company. So given the storm, the business of mergers are behind us.

So we use the opportunity to basically relook at what we have in various contracts, and this is the result we see for 2025 book that have been audited by Ernst & Young. So now I think both of us have concluded.

Nico, now coming back to you.

Okay. Thank you, Hartono and Adam, for your insightful presentation.

[Operator Instructions] To start with, we have a question from Sabrina.

Congrats on the good set of results. Only 2 questions from me.

So the first one is we actually noticed a meaningful Q-on-Q increase in the revenue from XL, Smart contracts. Could you share with us more colors on the nature of these deals?

And what is actually driving the growth? And the second one is, as interest rates are likely to remain elevated for longer, how does the company plan to actually manage or balance its financing costs with ongoing organic expansion despite we have seen some efforts of deleveraging in full year '25.

I'll stop there.

So we -- like we said, we relook at what we have. So several of the collections were actually taking place in 4Q and then some additional run rate revenue also incurred during 2025 last quarter, fourth quarter.

So I think going into 2026, we expect, given that we are now -- we'll be working very hard with XL and Smartfren to successfully create value for the merger. So we see us working more on the non-towers because they will need some restructuring on the non-tower side.

So coming back to this question, so we expect for towers, again, before seeing some more upside. So we see towers to remain flat for now.

And then we see additional incremental from the non-towers, which is fiber to the tower as required by XL, Smartfren. And then we expect to see some increase in penetration rates as well as some additional home passes business that we see during 2026.

So this is also concludes a discussion about what we see for 2026. So overall, I think for towers, non-towers combined, we see the company to book basically low single-digit revenue growth, and then EBITDA also and then net profit before we see additional upside.

Because we -- when we were discussing this, this was back when we prepared what we see for 2026, that was sometime in January, December that type of times. So we are hopeful that we can update the market what we see for the remainder of the year when we release our newer quarterly results because we see a lot of noise right now at the moment when it comes to what we see as the outlook for 2026.

I think the requirement of merging parties is actually like we saw in IOH. So they see -- they want to see efficient use of assets, efficient use of leases on whatever they want, right?

But since XL, Smartfren is focused also on 5G, so we see the need of fiberization to be higher at this stage. Does that make sense, Sabrina?

Okay. I understand.

And what about on the interest rates?

Yes. On the interest rates, I just had coffee with banks.

They also have problems lending to various sectors in the country given elevated oil prices recently, which did not come into our picture when we prepare our budget. So we think the bond market may see some movement, but the banks are not that facing easy times for themselves to lend.

So we expect the banks to remain liquid, in other words. So this answer may come to you differently if you asked me before the war, frankly speaking.

But just talking to the banks, when they need to find good credit quality borrower to lend to, they have problems because everything has gone up in price, inflation. And then that's why you see equity prices come down because people expect inflation to be high.

And then even though we have taken out a lot of the risk from our balance sheet, like, for instance, the fuel cost I mentioned in the first 10 minutes of our call. But again, the customers that have to bear those fuel costs, transportation costs will face difficult times here themselves.

Frankly speaking, we have not taken into account a very significant rate cut in our projection. Some cut, but not so much.

So we see we have some buffers there. So for instance, 2023, we were 6.1%.

And in 2024, average cost 6.2%. 2025 is 6% like we just presented to you.

In 2026, we are hopeful we don't have to go fix something longer dated, given liquidity is still abundant in the marketplace, in the bank's market, especially. Does that make sense, Sabrina?

In other words, I don't have an answer right now because during the last Board meeting, we were not discussing about borrowing more. We are pretty much well-funded at this stage.

And then we only have to talk about new interest rate with banks when it comes to the need of, say, IDR 5 trillion or IDR 10 trillion of new facility with banks. Does that make sense?

And BI rate has remained stable, 4.75%, Sabrina. Does that make sense?

So in other words, this quarter, maybe we don't see the impact yet of increased rates so much because of the war. The war only started at the beginning of March, yes.

Okay. So it will be pretty much at the same rate from 4Q...

Probably slightly higher, yes, which is -- which means if it goes higher than what we saw in December 2025 or 6%, so that means the management has to work harder to find the savings elsewhere, right Hartono?

Yes.

Okay. I think maybe one last question.

Can you share how many kilometers of fiber connectivity services were actually added or deployed in 4Q?

In 4Q, didn't you see in our presentation slide.

I think it wasn't there.

Operational numbers.

So Sabrina, for the connectivity, the metrics that we use is not the line of the cable, but actually the connection, the activation. So that's the metric for connectivity because different with FTTT, which is we bill the customer by kilometer per month.

But for the connectivity is regardless how long the cable is, I think we charge them actually on the bandwidth, the dedicated bandwidth that we provide to them. So the measurement is not using the kilometer for the connectivity.

Okay. Yes, because I was seeing the numbers on the slides for 3Q, but it seems to be not there anymore for 4Q.

So that's why.

You mean the fiber run? You mean the fiber -- physical cable of fiber?

Yes.

It's in Slide 7. Everything is -- together.

You just have to basically take out the FTTT. And then everything is in there.

We just decided not to be too detailed about that one for the fiber assets.

Okay. I would like to ask the next question.

But I think we all recognize that the 2025 result, be it was partly driven by the tax. Can you please quantify normalized full year 2025 earnings if we take out the tax expense volatility and what would be the effective tax rate that we should assume for 2026?

I think that's difficult because when we see, say, for instance, in 2024 year, if you look at Slide number, there's a P&L there. Slide #16.

In 2024, there was a higher tax payment because of different opinions between our management and then tax office in 2024. So there was a slightly higher tax payment back then.

And then whatever we paid, and then we just decided to expand it in that particular year. So 2025, the numbers still increase, but to say whether this is a run rate, it's very difficult for us.

There's a new tax system, for instance, [ core tax ], right? So there could be different interpretations still about where the tax office sees, the tax expense should be.

It's an ongoing process, Nico, to this now. So I think I'm hearing if it's -- right now, it's, I think, quite normalized tax rate, but no guarantee about that because of -- there's always a possibility of different tax opinion between us and tax office.

Okay. For the next question [indiscernible].

Yes. I have 3 questions.

My first question is regarding your reseller conversion -- reseller revenue conversion to direct revenue part. Can you please explain more about this conversion?

And was this related to the XL, S revenue growth in...

Mostly, yes. So IBST was a reseller, but the towers belonging to somebody else.

Okay. And the conversion, is it going to be a one-off in the 4Q?

Or are we seeing for the conversion part?

No, not anymore, not so much. So next year, 2026, I think we expect to see some increase in tenancy ratios because of Indosat start to -- and then Telkomsel also start to basically expand.

And then their past -- especially with IOH, they no longer have relocation rights. So whenever they need new sites, it's going to be new colo in 2026.

Okay. So basically.

A slight increase, not like a jump, but a slight increase. Under our base case, there's still a bit of an increase in tenancy ratios.

Okay. So the conversion is actually related to the IBST contract previously...

In 4Q, yes. And don't forget, when we say revenue will be a bit flat in 2026, it's excluding potential consolidation of subsidiaries or acquisition of additional shares of our subsidiaries.

So because some of the transaction is related to corporate actions that have not been disclosed yet.

Okay. And can you please share the CapEx guidance for '26?

Yes. CapEx should be around IDR 5 trillion.

Okay. And can you share the like allocation for...

Should be still similar with what you saw in full year 2025 when it comes to split, because we still have to -- we expect to build new towers also for XLS but not as in the tune of IOH relocations for the towers. So XLS, I think the required relocations is about 8,000 locations, but then a lot of that will be on existing towers.

Okay. And how many supposed to be in BTS form?

About 1,000.

Only 1,000. Okay.

And IDR 5 trillion CapEx already covering for that 1,000...

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay. And my last question is the -- on the potential upside from the FWA deployment part.

Can you share the color on that and the timing?

So at the start of fasting, it was below 100, but now we see that number comes to about 400 coming from FWA colocations.

That's already being realized or that's for...

Yes, in the works to be realized, you should be able to see some in our first quarter results.

I see. And that's for the full year or only for the first Q, I mean...

Only for the first Q.

Okay. And can you share like what's the potential in the full year?

Nothing that we have received as final number in our management meetings here. So they come in the batch of hundreds.

Maybe if we talk again in 1 month, I'll be able to share more numbers with you.

Okay. And my last question is following up to that.

So the low single-digit growth, is that already including the FY upside?

Yes, yes, yes. That's why you see the unexpected inch in, increase in tenancy ratios for 2026.

I mean we assume always possibility of not too strong wireless market churn, stuff like that. So we cannot always assume a positive net gain in tenancy ratios unless we see something different, materially different.

So we're kind of a bit cautious in our assumptions.

Next, I will read out the question in the chat box from Julie. Was there an increase in average tower rental rate in 4Q 2025, what was the reason behind this?

Yes, that's a function of what Hartono was saying that we relook at what we have in ability to charge our customers like occupancy of towers, space that we have originally stipulated in the original contract and then they end up occupying with more equipment. So that's why you saw average lease going up.

But what we see is that base rent, I think we're pretty much quite stable. I don't have the number with me right now, but should be around $12 million something in average lease rate for tower leases, including colocations.

Next, I will take a question in the chat box from Selvi. Wi-Fi and MyRepublic are expanding to fixed wireless access.

Will [indiscernible] become the tower partner for their [indiscernible] services? If yes...

Yes, yes.

Okay.

I think we already answered that in the immediately previous question from Sabrina, I think -- [indiscernible], sorry.

Yes. And could you please give color on the revenue expectation and EBITDA margin?

We mentioned about the -- what we see 2026. We have devised a budget for 2026 under which management will be operating.

So I think still low single-digit kind of revenue growth. Similarly with EBITDA.

Again, the major driver for growth is connectivity, as Hartono has mentioned, because we see opportunities to basically cover more market under connectivity under our own discretion. We are hearing off and on mobile wireless operators being hesitant about spending CapEx.

So that's why we think 2026 will still be -- the brighter spot is from connectivity...

Yes. Still connectivity, we feel that there's still a room for quite an improvement, utilizing the kilometer fiber layout that we have across Indonesia.

And also, we see that the needs for the Internet is increasing from year-to-year. So we see that connectivity, especially will book quite a growth.

And then the growth from that connectivity, very strong growth from connectivity will lift the overall POW or performance for 2026.

Okay. Next, we will take a question from [ Eta ] and then we will take one last question as we approach the end of the call today.

From Eta, what is the pricing trend for tower and fiber? What is the sustainable level in the industry?

And then what is the typical tower required in 5G?

Yes. I answer for the fiber -- for the pricing for fiber, if relate to the FTTT, I think it's already bottomed.

I think we don't see any further decrease on that. For the connectivity, yes, we see that it's very natural the price will go down every year.

However, what we do is we don't -- we try to maintain the price. Instead of lowering the price, we give them more bandwidth.

So the revenue is still remained the same. So that's our strategy for the fiber.

Yes. I think for towers, I think like, for instance, the new possibility of bigger volume with FWA.

I think, again, what we -- what I mentioned during the first 5 minutes is that what we've been trying to do is that same with fiber with towers also, rather than these guys, whoever wants to expand the network or improve the network rather than them go out of pocket to build new infrastructure using other people or their own capital, I think we have the flexibility of very efficient CapEx and OpEx outlay on a per unit basis. I mentioned this a couple of times, I'm going to mention again.

For instance, the number of people operating under towers, even though we were 15,000 towers or 20,000 towers, the headcount on the tower is still 900 people more or less. So that provides a very high tower count per headcount that we have under towers.

For fiber, I think the same thing, if we reach certain scale, we've reached a certain scale with fiber optics, very good margins that we think we should be able to outperform the competition. Not to mention, we have also a very good access to capital, as you can see in our performance.

What we want to avoid is going out there and then try to propose a new business proposal. And then the pricing is off, meaning it's just too expensive or what we want to be able to provide is earn the business by providing something very efficient.

So if they do their own calculations, it's just better off to just lease, and that goes for colocation as well. So based on that, and we've been saying this for the many, many quarters already, pricing have been quite stable.

So I think about IDR 12 million, for instance, for towers. So that's what we think should be the main focus of management going forward.

Okay. And for our last question today from [indiscernible].

Previously, you touched about acquisition opportunity. Can you give more details on that?

Yes, nothing I can share actually. But you see some assets still left to be consolidated.

We will look at those opportunities very carefully. At this stage, frankly speaking, we are looking at something very strategic where we can enhance value to the whole franchise.

We own several subsidiaries. And then I think one transaction is pending to conclude in second Q, but not much that we can say at this stage.

So when we say revenue growth is flattish, it's not including transactions like that.

Awesome. Before we end the call today, do you have any closing remarks, Adam or Hartono?

Yes. So hopefully, all of you will be able to see more of us, Hartono and myself, talking about the business.

It's just a matter of 5 weeks, and the whole world is different because of the war. Right now, fortunately, we don't have a funding need that really necessitates us to basically discuss a new term sheet.

Fortunately, Bank Indonesia did not increase BI rate. So that reflects the banking system liquidity.

We also price a lot of our loans based on that policy rate, BI rate with banks, the biggest banks in Indonesia also included state banks, commercial banks, and still, we have very much liquidity offering coming ourselves, coming our way from financial markets, including banks. So I think we are in a good position if we are to launch a bond, for instance, because we don't have a financing need that is necessitate us to borrow at a much higher borrowing cost at this stage, okay?

I think this answer to Sabrina's question. I think for us, we are optimistically looking at where our customers are heading.

Hopefully, this war doesn't cause any more concern than what we already see in our other type of business in our daily lives. Do you add, Hartono?

No, that's it.

Thank you, Nico and everybody.

Great. We come to the end part of the session.

On behalf of Bahana Sekuritas, I would like to thank you, Hartono, Adam for the informative and interesting talk that we have today, and congratulations as well on your impressive results. And I would like to thank you, the audience for your participation.

We hope this presentation is beneficial for everyone. Thank you, and see you in our next event.

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you, Nico. Thank you.

Bye.

Bye. Thank you.