Irene, thank you very much. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you very much for joining us on this call today.

I am joined on the call today by our Group Finance Director Abigail Mukhuba, our Group Chief Risk Officer and Chief Actuary Mlondolozi Mahlangeni, and our Head of Investor Relations Thokozile Mahlangu. Earlier today, we released our operational update for the first 3 months of 2026.

I'll provide a very brief overview of our strategic progress and operational performance before we'll open the line for questions. The group is investing in organic growth, and while this puts some short-term pressure on earnings, it underpins future growth.

Against this backdrop, I'm going to cover 5 points briefly in order, I hope, to assist you in making some sense of the quarter's performance. First off, the group continued to make excellent progress in the execution of strategic priorities in the quarter.

We closed the Ninety One transaction in early February. The MUFG capital injection into Shriram Finance took place just after the quarter end, and we now have more than 50% share in each of the Indian insurance businesses and their economics.

We have capacitated the Lloyd's Syndicate. Our cloud migration is on track, and we're progressing to launch banking services in South Africa just as soon as we've obtained the necessary regulatory approvals.

We're confident that our clients platform coupled with the growth factors we're investing in will drive future growth for the group. Second point to make at this time is that the group's capital position remains very strong.

Discretionary capital is now around the upper end of our long-term target range following the closure of the Indian insurance transactions. This stands us in good stead to deal with any volatility that might arise in the balance of the year.

Turning to earnings, which is the third area I want to talk a little bit about. In our business of course, 1 quarter is no real guide to the full year, and this first quarter saw volatility in both investment variances from ALM hedging and large reductions in underwriting profit at both Santam and Sanlam Allianz as a result of large weather-related claims.

Importantly, Santam still achieved an underwriting margin above the midpoint of their target range despite those adverse weather claims, while Sanlam Allianz fell below its range. The weather losses in the first quarter were large compared to the prior year, but within the normal range of what we expect in any given period for this sort of event.

In judging earnings progress from prior year, one needs to adjust the South African rand strength, sale of the asset management business to Ninety One, whose dividends and capital movements will not appear in Sanlam's operating profits, and for the restructuring of the group to upweight India while downweighting Sanlam Allianz from a profitability point of view. Investment variances included in operating profit were positive for the quarter.

For the purpose of determining cash earnings from which we can declare dividends, these investment variances are transferred to the asset mismatch reserve for release to profits in later years, exactly as in the past. Ninety One transaction creates different effects across operating profit, headline earnings, and GEV.

Quarter-on-quarter comparisons require some particularly special care. Importantly, the transaction strengthens both our strategic position and future dividend capacity.

Investment returns on shareholder funds were lower in the first quarter than in the first quarter of the previous year. Higher bond yields and some stock market weakness in Morocco in particular drove lower returns on those assets.

As a result, return on equity was a little depressed in the first quarter. The fourth area that I want to focus on is new business volumes and net client cash flows.

We're delighted to see overall strong growth in new business volumes and net client cash flows. Overall sales were strong with particular emphasis on capital-light, market-linked sales with only Sanlam Allianz general insurance and the Indian life sales disappointing.

The lower VNB margin primarily reflects product mix rather than a deterioration in underlying economics. Consistent with these bumper sales was good persistency experience.

Finally, I'd like to mention a few points regarding the outlook for the balance of the year. Despite the current global volatility, we are optimistic both about the long-term growth prospects for the group and the current year performance.

Our clients have weathered the storm so far, and while high oil prices and inflation will create cost-of-living pressures in the short term, the group remains well-positioned for long-term growth. The weather-related claims in the first quarter are not out of line with our expectations of potential volatility from this source.

Parts of the Western Cape have suffered severe storm damage over the last few weeks, i.e. after the quarter end.

The extent of the damage has not yet been quantified yet, and we do expect it to have an impact on the results as the year progresses. We have, however, taken a number of actions to prioritize restoring both VNB margins and to compensate for the higher claims experience from weather events in the first quarter.

This is across the group. Some of these efficiency initiatives will only be fully realized by the end of the year, we expect to have second-half earnings higher than first-half earnings, always subject, of course, to weather, global geopolitical environment, and, of course, the normal economic factors and market levels that we are susceptible to.

We do, however, see some progress on earnings growth by the end of the first half. In conclusion, the first quarter of '26 has seen some considerable strategic progress, and we remain confident about meeting the long-term targets we've set for the business over time.

There are quite a few moving parts affecting the first quarter's operating profit, but the group remains confident that through its actions, it'll be able to meet the full-year guidance, subject, of course, to those same unknowns of weather, the geopolitical environment, and, of course, various market levels. I hope that those few comments help just to give you a little bit of boundaries around and some guidance on how we saw the first quarter.

I will now open up to questions, and Abigail, Mlondolozi are standing by to help answer your questions. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press star and then 1 on your touchtone phone or on the keypad on your screen.

You will hear a confirmation tone that you have joined the queue. If you decide to withdraw the question, please press star and then 2 to remove yourself from the queue.

Once again, if you would like to ask a question, you may press star and then 1.

Hi guys, can you hear me?

Michael, we hear you perfectly. Nice to hear from you.

Excellent. Thank you, Paul, and thanks very much for the time.

I'll start with 3 or 4 questions if I can. I think the main one that concerns me a little bit is the margin, obviously.

I wonder if you can maybe just give us a little bit more color as to the various moving parts there. You talk about negative margins in India, and I'm just trying to understand what is the trajectory of say, mass market in SA and middle and affluent market in SA relative to the full-year number?

Has there been a sharp deterioration in either of those 2? Those are the 2 that I'm most interested in.

That's the first question. The second question is just on the Indian life insurance transactions that were completed.

Is there going to be any EV write-down impacts for goodwill? If you can just give us a sense of how big that would likely be for our modeling for H1.

Then the third question, the investment management operating profit growth on a normalized basis looked a little bit on the low end to me given how well opening assets should have been higher than a year ago. Are the stranded cost impacts in that 7% or have you normalized that out?

I'm just unsure about that, if you can. Then the last question, if you don't mind, is just on mortality.

I know it's 1 period and 1 quarter is a very short period, but just how is mortality looking? It was really good across the sector end of last year.

Thank you.

Michael. Let's go through those 4 one by one.

Sorry, I should have written them down. I was listening carefully.

Your first one was actually around the VNB margin, and I think you were interested in particularly what has happened to the margin in the mass business and the affluent business. Look, I've said to you guys many many times,

you

got to be very you are very very careful with VNB margin because it's the weighted average of a whole lot of very very different things. Some products have much higher margins than other.

If you take something like market-linked business, where you got a switch from immediate annuities to market-linked, actually the VNB doesn't reflect a huge chunk of the profits that you're going to make on that business because it's sitting in your asset management operations. That's why the margin on those products are lower.

If you talk about the mass market, it is true that actually our spread of costs is not even over the full year. Actually, the first quarter of any year, the VNB is a little bit lower in the mass business than in the full year.

That is a little bit lower. The affluent business, it's literally just a huge mix swing.

I think, Mlondolozi, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in the first quarter, the immediate annuities were down to 18%, am I right, of the total?

That is correct.

Yeah. Whereas what was the number for the full year last year?

It was about 30%, right? Roughly,

yeah, around 30%.

Yeah. That change of mix is a big thing.

Each individual product still has the same VNB margin inherently. It's not as if the margins themselves are being compressed, if you get my point.

India is in a turnaround. I think by the end of the year, we'll start seeing positive VNB.

Obviously, anything that's negative pulls the weighted average down horribly. The second question related to, Michael, just remind me,

you asked about Indian life GEV impacts, any write-downs there of goodwill?

Oh, the EV impact. That I think Mlondolozi, do you know the answer to that?

Yes, I know the answer to that, Paul. There will be a GEV write-down on the life businesses because the transactions were done at appraisal value, but we value them at GEV.

We did them at about 2 times GEV, for the life transactions, there'll be a write-down of 50% of the purchase prices. On the general insurance side, there's not going to be a GEV write-down arising from the transactions.

For the life transactions, it's 50% goodwill write-down. Super

clear. Thank you.

It is worth pointing out, Michael, of course, that GEV write-down on the Indian life business is minute compared to the uplift that you would expect to see on the Shriram Finance stake and the Ninety One stake.

Agreed.

Okay. Yeah.

Actually, it's a good question you asked because it actually underlines in a certain sense the flaw in the whole GEV methodology where you ignore the value of goodwill or new business on life business. I know the fourth one was mortality.

What was the third one again? The

investment management operating profit growth.

At

that 7%, does that include stranded costs?

It does, by definition, include stranded costs in there. Abigail, are you able to add any color to or Mlondolozi to that topic?

Yes, Paul. Hi, Michael.

Paul is right. It does include stranded costs.

The 7% that you're referring to for the quarter that includes stranded costs included in there. Overall for the full year, we did communicate that it's approximately about between 200 to 300 million of stranded costs that this business will still need to be sure that they drive efficiency on.

Yeah.

Can I just say one thing, Michael, is that the answer to why it's only 7% doesn't lie in the stranded costs. The answer lies in This is why quarters are horrible things.

Very good performance fees in the prior year in Q1.

All right. Okay.

Then

on mortality, Mlondolozi again, I'm sure he'll tell me if I'm wrong, but it's trending along pretty much in Q1. There's nothing unusual.

It's not elevated, and it's not depressed. There's been no bumper profits and no setbacks.

I think you must know this, Michael, is that the winter months tend to be the bad months on that front.

Yeah. Perfect.

Thanks very much.

No worries.

Hi there.

Thank you for taking my question.

Hi, Faizan, welcome to the call.

Thank you very much. The first is on the project expenses.

Can you provide some color on how that's developed year-on-year, and just give us a reminder in terms of what the guidance is for that line item for this year and next year? The second question is on Sanlam Allianz.

It was obviously a tough quarter due to the weather. Could you maybe give us an idea in terms of how much of that poor performance is down to attritional versus cat, and what's a realistic timeframe for sort of rejigging that portfolio?

My third question is a comment that you made in there about the weather events being tougher than last year, but broadly in line with where you think they could be within a range. Just want to get a sense in terms of versus sort of best estimate, how was the weather in the quarter relative to expectations?

Finally, just want to come back to the same question on the VNB margins. Very clear from what you're saying in terms of VNB is not a great indicator given where it sits in different line items.

Given how your mix is developed and where the margin is, how should we think about the flow-through into the P&L and into capital generation from a solvency perspective? Thank you.

Okay. That was quite a mouthful.

I think there were four questions there.

There was four, indeed.

Yeah. Why don't you just remind us of the first one?

Let's just do them one at a time.

The first was on project expenses and sort of guidance there in terms of how that's developing.

Project expenses. Let's get Abigail.

Abigail, you can provide some guidance on the project expenses.

Thanks, Paul. Thank you.

On the project expense base, Faizan, we did guide through the year-end process that we expect the project expenses to remain slightly elevated in 2026 as well, similar levels as slightly below the 2025 levels. That was mostly as we were embedding the SA ecosystem in terms of the launching of the transactional banking proposal as well as the rewards and setting up the SA ecosystem.

However, I think like any other business, we are operating in an environment where we're having to deal with the realities of a very tough macroeconomic environment. This is an area that we are also looking at to see if we can responsibly delay and/or reduce some of our project expenditure.

We expect the project expenses for the year to slightly come down from what we had initially guided. I would say that it would be levels below 500 if we just looking at the project expenses that are not pre-funded.

Obviously, we do have the other project expenses that are already pre-funded, and those don't generally knock your P&L.

Okay.

Your second question, Faizan, had to do with just remind us.

It was on Sanlam Allianz in terms of how much of that experience is down to weather versus attritional,

and

what the timeframe is for that to sort of get back to target returns.

I think you also asked, I think, somewhat related about, what what our expectation is. Now you I think you can appreciate, especially because you live in England and you know a lot about the weather, is that, I wouldn't say We don't we don't budget or have an expectation specifically for the weather in any given quarter, although, obviously, we know some periods are dry and some are wet.

We we have kind of budgets for what we think are reasonable level of that type of thing over the course of a whole year, right? You have a feel for it.

These are not these are not way outside of our expectation of what we're trying to say. We we don't have We have a budget for the year.

I don't want to give you what our budget for the year is, but it's not particularly abnormal, whereas the first quarter of last year was actually very good, extremely good. You may remember some years ago, there were absolutely horrific floods in Morocco.

We've had floods again this year, which was a problem. We had these absolutely horrific things, and actually, in that instance, there there was not a lot of claims for us because actually the government stepped in and and sorted out.

They were actually worse, far far worse, and and people's houses were swept away, and so on. A lot of people who had houses swept away were uninsured people.

They were relatively poor people without insurance. It is a bit hit-and-miss.

All we're saying is that you don't need to worry. This is not a sort of a, a Florida floods kind of of of scenario.

We'd expect by the end of the year, for the balance of the year to be relatively, benign. You never know.

Storms and that can come in from anywhere anytime. That's really all we've we've we've guided.

You had you had another question though, I know, on something else.

It was just sort of around the commentary around VNB margins and how should we think about the overall

flow-through

into P&L and capital? How business flows through into the P&L.

Yeah.

Mlondolozi, I think this is probably your territory.

Yes, Paul. I'll take it.

Hi, Faizan. Nice to speak to you again.

Yeah. The way you'd think about it, you mentioned the point about what's been changing in the business mix, and as Paul initially indicated earlier on, that the mix will shift based on certain external factors, for example, markets and so forth.

The way to think about it from a capital generation perspective is that whilst you are adding covered VNB because you've got slightly lower-margin products, they are also less capital-intensive. Therefore, from a surplus generation perspective, your capital requirements are also not growing as much as if you were adding the more capital-intensive products.

What you'll see from a capital generation perspective is a reduction in the pace of your capital requirements growing, aligned with the reduction in your generation of your own funds. You'll have a slight offsetting effect.

What you'll then see over time is then the level of profitability, because you've got slightly lower margin, will be slightly lower in rand amount, but your return on capital will still remain healthy. As Paul indicated, our margins by product still remain very healthy, and they meet our hurdles from a return on capital perspective.

You'll just get a reduction in the margin level. That's how you should think about it from a organic capital generation perspective.

Helpful. Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Great. Irene, are there any other questions on the call?

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for taking my questions.

I had a couple of kind of real questions, and then just 3 of clarification. I'll start with the couple of kind of real ones.

You've mentioned a few places about how investment drag has come through in Q1, and there's going to be certain investments, etc., made through the year. Could you just expand on that a little bit?

Ideally, quantifying where that's appearing, and how much it is, and what the outlook is in terms of that investment drag. That's the first question.

Then secondly, I just wanted to ask about the normalized insurance and shareholder investment return outlook. A lot of your metrics that you measure yourself on and the new targets you have are all kind of pre-variances, and therefore, you must have an expectation for what 2026 insurance and shareholder investment returns are likely to be.

From where I'm sitting, it's very hard for us to model that and have an expectation. If you could actually give us some guidance over that, that'd be immensely helpful.

I'll come back for the 3 clarifications in a second, if that's okay.

Sure. Look, I think your first question, we can go back to Abigail.

I think she has spoken about the project expenses, which is where the investment is going on. Do you want to have another go at it, Abigail?

Of course. In terms of the project expenses, the investments go into, firstly, we're modernizing a lot of our technology.

One of the bigger ones that we're doing there is the migration into cloud. We currently have legacy on-prem systems, so that's one of the things that we're doing.

We're also trying to embed AI into our processes. That's on the technology front.

Also, from let's say revenue-generating perspective, we are investing in growing some of our branch networks in the South African context, and we are also investing in the rewards program as well as the banking proposition. There's a few of them that are intended to solidify our position in the South African market, but also just to modernize the organization.

We also have other amounts, obviously typical of when you've got corporate activities. Obviously, some of them are still tailing through in as far as some of the transactions that have been earlier in the year.

I think it's fair to say, Abigail, we're not going to give you a list of every project we have and the amount we expect to spend on it. I think that would be a level of overkill.

James, sorry, just remind me your second question was on

Go on. I wasn't quite sure if you could hear me because I think I got cut off a little bit.

The question on investment wasn't so much for project expenses, sorry for that.

Oh, on

the investment.

Yeah.

Can you hear me okay? Just check you can hear me.

We can, yes.

Okay. Sorry, if I go back to the first question, the question is less to do with project expenses and more to do with investment expenses that are occurring within the operating profit line.

Like things like investment in India, and I think there was something else mentioned elsewhere in the release. It's within the operating profit.

If I got that wrong, there's nothing really dragging on that, and that's fine. Then the second question is on the normalized expectations for investment returns.

Okay. Oh, okay.

No, look, I think in a place like India, yeah. Abigail, I think the question is in a place like India, how much are we investing in growing that retail distribution channel?

James, we're not disclosing that sort of level of detail at this point in time. I think it's something Abigail will have to go and think about whether she wants to get down to that.

In terms of the investment return, Mlondolozi, I think it's good for you to answer this question. I think, yeah, we clearly do have an expected return over the year.

The rise in interest rates is obviously what's hammered things, but I think a lot of that is actually already come back since the quarter end. Maybe you could answer that.

Thank you, Paul. I can answer that.

We do have an expectation of the investment return. For the full year, we are expecting to earn around, say, 8% to 9% after tax.

The reason for that level of return is that more than 50% of the assets that are backing our capital portfolios are in fixed interest type investments, and another quarter in equities and the balance in other assets. What has happened in the first quarter particularly, what caused a drag was mainly the rise in interest rates as Paul has indicated in the first quarter, which has now reverted.

Also, it was the equity performance in our Moroccan business, where a large component of our equity exposure is held. When we look at the remainder of the year, our expectation will be based on what happens to equity markets.

I think at half year, we'll be able to disclose a lot more information around the asset allocation for the shareholder capital portfolio as well as expected returns for the different asset classes. If we are looking at the expectation in the first quarter of this year, the return that we achieved was lower than the expectation because of the rise in interest rates as well as the underperformance in equity markets, particularly in Morocco.

Okay. That's the return on shareholder fund reserves, right?

You were talking about the 8 8% to 9% expectation.

You're talking about on shareholder funds, not on the shareholder fund reserves.

Yeah. Okay.

Just 2 clarification points. The credit spread widening you mentioned as being a drag, can I just check that that isn't included as part of the investment variance, MTM kind of adjustment?

It looks like it's included actually in the pre-adjustment like-for-like number. Do you not normalize for credit spread widening?

No, we don't. We don't normalize for credit spread widening.

Our normalization principles really is mostly for M&A activity as well as currency. The rest rather forms part of the overall conversation, but it's not normalized for.

To the extent that there are, let's say, investment variances or investment return impact from the M&A activity, that would then be part of that normalization.

Yeah. I think, Abigail, just let Mlondolozi clarify the credit spread and the treatment of investment variances around it.

Yeah.

I think there's maybe 2 2 2 things to consider. A component of it is treated as an investment variance.

We assume that 50% of the credit spread widening effect is an investment variance, and the remaining 50% is treated as an indication of a deterioration in true credit quality. That's how it's treated from an investment variance perspective.

What Abigail was covering was when it comes to the normalization of operating profit, for example, to get to a like-for-like comparison, in that particular normalization, you don't adjust for the credit spread widening specifically because it is treated as an investment variance. That's the 2 aspects.

I think, James, for normalization purposes where you are allowing for structural changes, you don't normalize for the credit spread widening in that normalization.

Okay. Hopefully, this will get clearer at 1H.

I'm conscious other people have questions. Can I just one more quick one from me?

Can I just ask what the operating profit before variance baseline was for 2025? I know you have the target that you've reiterated today.

Just I'm not entirely clear what the 2025 absolute base number is that refers to. Thank you.

Abigail.

Just so I understand, is that for 2025 for the first quarter or the full year?

For the full year '25, yeah. Is it just the 407 I need to adjust for the

The operating profit excluding investment variances for the full year was 13,853. 13,853.

Thank you. I'll pass the mic over to someone else now.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, James.

Hi guys. Just one or two questions from me.

I think some of them have been answered. Can you maybe just comment on the outlook for persistency for the rest of the year given the potential impacts, I guess, of inflation?

Then maybe just to clarify on Sanlam Allianz, the guidance for the full year, is that your underwriting margins return to your through-the-cycle target ranges? What's the official guidance?

Okay. Let's just talk about persistency to begin with.

Each of us on this call will have different expectations about what's going to happen to inflation for the balance of the year. I think, amongst all of us, we've probably managed to agree that the expectation is that inflation will rise.

The only issue is to what extent and precisely what it impacts. We do expect it to have some impact on people's cost of living and, therefore, on disposable income.

That could well put some pressure on persistency. All we have said is that at this point, persistency is well under control.

Of course, the longer we're into an upward inflation cycle, the higher the risk becomes. Particularly if that is coupled with relatively weaker growth and higher unemployment.

The other thing about inflation, of course, is it's going to have a big bearing on claims costs in your general insurance businesses right across the board because it will put upward pressure on costs of repairs and replacement of things. If you ask us what exactly do we think is going to happen, we don't know probably any better than anybody else does.

It's a definite downside risk, rising inflation, to both persistency and, of course, the sales as well, sales persistency and GI claims costs, and therefore underwriting margin. Then, Baron, your second question was around just remind me,

was on Sanlam Allianz, just clarifying the guidance for the year on the underwriting margin. Is it your expectation

We'd expect their underwriting margin to be within their range for the balance of the year, right, but not to recover what they've lost in the first quarter. In sort of cricketing parlance, they're not going to pick up the run rate that they've dropped in the first quarter, but you'd hope that they'd be on their original expected run rate for the balance of the innings.

Yeah. Okay.

Thank you.

We have to make that up from elsewhere, which is why Abigail went into a bit of detail around some of the efficiencies that we're pushing through all over the place.

Good day. Thank you for the opportunity.

Just one question. Can you please clarify your full-year earnings guidance?

You specifically mentioned that you are confident that you will meet that guidance. Just please clarify what was your guidance.

Abigail.

Our guidance was that for earnings purposes, we expect that for 2026, we're going to have South African CPI plus 3% for 2026. Our vision to 2030 or through the cycle guidance is CPI plus 6% through the cycle.

We did flag when we came out with our full-year 2025 results that we expect that for 2026, given some of the investments that we're putting into the business, that there would be a bit of a drag for 2026. A lot of it was also linked to the structural changes that we were seeing in the business between 2025 to 2026 as we bedded down some of the corporate activity.

Some of the main ones that impacted -- I think James called it a drag as well. A bit of a drag was that we know that we have launched from a Santam perspective in our GI business, the Lloyd's Syndicate, and we expected that that obviously in its first year of operation would be in a loss-making position or in more like an early startup J-curve.

Then we also saw again in the Santam business that 2025 was what we called abnormally benign weather events year because we didn't really have many big events in terms of weather last year. Already in 2026, we are seeing that normalization as we had indicated at the time.

Then you also have, obviously, a bit of the structural shifts in as far as the percentage shareholdings that we had between the different businesses that was included in that guidance. A long answer to say that our guidance was CPI plus 3% for 2026.

Abigail, probably the most important thing to tell Thapelo is that that excludes investment variances because that's outside of everybody's, A, control, and B, guesswork.

All right. Thank you so much.

Makes sense.

good evening, Paul, Abigail, and team. I've got three.

I'll just start really on the same topic, just in terms of your guidance for 2026 on operating profits, which excluded investment variances. In this release for the first quarter, you did highlight what investment variances did for certain line items, but are you able to disclose what it did for actual operating profit?

If you were to provide an equivalent metric to your guidance for the full year, what did the first quarter do? Second question is just on the Indian rupee.

Obviously, a meaningful headwind in the period, came through in a variety of places, but I just wanted more clarity on what the quantum of the Indian rupee hedge, the loss that you incurred in the first quarter that won't repeat. If you could just highlight what the quantum of that loss was.

Then lastly, you highlight the Sanlam Morocco, well, the Morocco equity markets, and again, the investment variances that are coming through from that. If I look at Sanlam Maroc's share price, that's up 42% year-to-date.

I understand you've made some progress there on merging with Allianz Maroc, and perhaps the share price is a function of that, but just trying to get a sense of what progress you've made there, what has the regulator agreed to, what is the impact of that share price movement to group equity value, if anything. Thanks.

Three good questions. Abigail, off you go.

It sounds like the first two are yours, and the last one, Mlondolozi.

On the operating profit excluding investment variances, percentage would be -7% for the first quarter, Warwick. Then the hedge loss quantum was 103 million for the first quarter.

Mlondolozi, on the impact of that valuation on GEV?

We do have a look at the valuation of the share price, but from a fundamental valuation perspective, we value our Moroccan business based on discounted cash flow basis, and it's got quite a very thin float, that stock. We value it on a DCF basis, and to the extent that there are fundamentals that are driving the valuation, it will be reflected in our DCF.

What you've seen in the share price might at different times deviate from what we see from a DCF perspective. We do check it against the valuation of that share price.

What we've seen in the improvement in the valuation in our DCF in the first quarter of the year has been a positive GEV performance apart from the negative equity performance that we referred to earlier, which comes through in the operating profit line.

Warwick, I think, as a very sort of simple rule, if the businesses are really big like Santam and liquid, then we tend to use market price. This is a very tightly held stock to be honest with you.

I can't even remember what is the free float on that stock. Heinie, it's 20 20% it isn't even 20%.

The market value is not very helpful. For all those kind of things, we tend to just use a more fundamental valuation.

It's only really when the price is lower than our fundamental valuation that anybody is actually jumping around looking at it.

That's helpful. If you just add a little bit of color around what's been agreed around the merger with Allianz in Morocco and what the regulator has allowed you to do?

Okay. We've got Heinie, I think, on the call.

Heinie, why don't you just add a bit of detail because you're in the detail. This has been a long negotiated thing, Warwick, as to what exactly we needed to do, and we've been through those steps now.

Heinie, do you want to just talk about the branches we sold and so on?

All the regulatory process is nearing completion. We are targeting regulatory approvals end June, early July, and hopefully to have the special EGM then for final merger approval in July.

It took a very long time, as Paul says, because we had about 2 years where we had to dispose of certain sales points, we had to reduce certain product lines to adhere to the competition commission concerns. Everything is on track, I would say, for hopefully, if nothing happens, that we should do the full merger in July.

Thanks, Heinie.

Irene, back to you if there are any more calls.

Irene, thank you very much, and thanks for being a good host to us. Everybody, thank you very much for making the time to join us.

We always appreciate your support. We enjoy the interaction, and we look forward to seeing you in September to go through the half-year results.

I think hopefully, we will improve some of the disclosures, particularly around how the NAVs are invested and the kind of investment returns then that you can expect over the long term coming out of those. Thank you very much to everybody, and we wish you all a very good evening.

Thanks a lot. Irene, you can now terminate the call.